Agenda item

Please introduce yourself and outline the roles and responsibilities that your post involves.

I am the Learner Services Director for National Apprenticeships in the South East.  I am responsible for the learner journey and apprenticeships in Kent. The National Apprenticeships Service (NAS) applies in England only, now that Wales and Scotland both have devolved governments.  The NAS is organised in regions, and my region is the whole of the South East.  Its remit is to build up the number of apprenticeships.  To develop this market, we work with employers in companies which employ more than 250 staff, to encourage them to take on an apprentice. We need to galvanise both young people and employers to grow the apprenticeship initiative.  Young people can register online and access an Apprenticeships Vacancy system.  NAS links with KCC and other local authorities to put apprenticeships on the agenda.  Our contacts include the Economic Development teams of local authorities, the Institute of Directors and Chambers of Commerce, and through them we access as many employers as possible.  We keep a database of who in an organisation is the appropriate person to deal with, and we go and visit them to encourage their interest and participation.  Apprenticeships are a proven way to train a workforce.  We work on both sides of the deal – with employers and with potential apprentices. There is a wide range of apprenticeships available.

 

NAS is part of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, so we work for central government with agency status.  Our independence helps us to deliver the agenda. We work with partners to help them access funding from the Skills Funding Agency and ensure that it gets to where it is needed.  We fund organisations which support the training of individuals.

 

There is an expectation that all apprentices will ultimately be employed by their hosts once their apprenticeship ends, and the Apprenticeships Skills and Learning Act of 2010 stressed the need for all apprentices to be employed.  NAS funds the training of an apprentice; it is the employer’s responsibility to take them on at the end of the apprenticeship.

 

How do you rate the providers? I know Further Education Colleges vary in quality. There are the private providers and people like Kent Association of Training Organisations.  Who does it best?

KATO are not involved in the delivery of services, so your comparison is really between colleges and private providers.  There is no trend which distinguishes between the two groups, but there are differences between providers within each group.  Nationally, the success rate for apprenticeships for 16 to 18 year olds is 72.4%, while in Kent it is 71.8%.

 

How do you measure success?

A successful apprenticeship is one which is successfully completed.  If an apprentice drops out after the sixth week, that is counted as a failed apprenticeship.  If the time is completed but the qualification at the end is failed, then that is counted as a failed apprenticeship.

 

Are apprenticeships more successful as full-time or part-time arrangements?

There are good and bad experiences in both.  There are different ways for young people to access apprenticeships.  An existing employee could access an apprenticeship by training at a college.

 

How many young people access a scheme in this way?

Unfortunately, this is not officially measured and there is not reliable data.  It is one of the questions on a detailed tracking form that employers complete, but it is not compulsory to answer and many don’t.

 

Do some decline to commit to an apprenticeship as they are not happy in the job they are doing, and they don’t want to be tied to it in an apprenticeship?

Young people take different routes into and through apprenticeships, so it is difficult to measure. Some come through part-time work or Saturday jobs, etc.  We also encourage recruitment directly into apprenticeships.

 

The Committee’s aim is to be able to identify where people come from to join apprenticeship schemes, what type of jobs they do, and how many and which types of employers get involved in apprenticeships.

 

We’ve seen the benefits of apprenticeships in that they help young people to become qualified at something.  Many young people might be quite capable but cannot show any formal qualifications. How do they get to the next level?

Our policy is to push for progression to Level 3 (which is the equivalent of A level.  Level 2 is the equivalent of GCSE).  Most young people do a Level 2 qualification, but we avoid keeping someone at Level 2 if they are capable of doing Level 3.  Many need a Level 2 in practical skills even if they have A levels.  In some sectors, the norm is for employers to sponsor a young person to Level 2, but we challenge employers to let them move up to Level 3.

 

Is there a shortage of training providers?

Not at the moment.  In the last two years, 12 new providers have become compliant with the regulations.

 

Could large organisations be their own training provider?

Yes.  For example, British Gas, BMW and Rolls Royce all do this, and we encourage this.  But sometimes it is difficult even for large organisations to take on apprentices. BAE Systems subcontractsmuch of this work to providers.

 

In terms of apprenticeship take-up, what is the breakdown between large and small companies?  And how could smaller companies be helped to take on apprentices?

We would always expect a provider to offer a high quality of apprenticeship, regardless of the size of the company, so in that way company size is irrelevant.  But there is inevitably an economy of scale, as a largercompany can spend more time and offer a bespoke training programme.  Small and Medium-sized Enterprises (SMEs) tend to engage more with local communities, which is useful.  We have a Small Businesses team, so would direct SMEs to them.

 

At whom was the 20/20 event focussed? Di it reach the correct audience?

It tends to be business-focussed rather than student-focussed, although some young people did present at it and found their involvement with it to be beneficial.

 

Which are scarcer – potential employers or potential apprentices?

There are fewer employers, by a very long way.  We have 30,000 students registered for apprenticeships, ten times the number of employers that we have registered.  There is a seasonal pattern of young people seeking apprenticeships, with September and January being the busiest times.  Some vacancies attract very few applicants, or none at all, while some larger companies can be permanently over-subscribed.

 

What plans do you have in place to cope with the impact of higher university fees and the number of young people who will not go to university as a result?

These will be served by the introduction of Higher Apprenticeships, which can be delivered through a Higher Education college while earning a wage.

 

Do you see any pattern of take-up based on gender, eg the ‘traditional’ career choices of hairdressing for girls and engineering for boys?  At a recent skills festival in Romney Marsh, many girls were interested in learning butchery skills!

In terms of a gender split, overall the numbers of boys and girls taking up apprenticeships are fairly even – 54% boys and 46% girls.  Looking at the detail, you find that engineering is still mainly taken up by boys and hairdressing mainly by girls.  There are national equality and diversity pilots to address this attitude to ‘traditional’ gender roles, but it is difficult to address. 

 

Is it possible to run apprenticeships through power stations, which are usually in rural locations where other local job prospects are limited? 

In terms of geographical spread, apprenticeships have to be where the employment is.  There are some work areas which are based in rural areas – eg the agricultural colleges in Kent, which offer courses in animal care, horticulture, land management, etc.  In Kent, the most popular subject areas for apprenticeships are customer services, business administration and hairdressing.  The first two of these offer the most applicable, transferable skills.

 

Does government red tape hinder apprenticeships? Why are the government regulations so cumbersome?

In terms of red tape, I agree that it is complicated. The only complication should be for the training provider, as they are receiving the money and should absorb the complications as part of the system. But we would seek to reduce the bureaucracy.

 

Referring back to gender patterns, I am pleased to see that there are plenty of girls pictured in the literature you’ve given the Committee.  I don’t think there should be any move to enforce a 50:50 balance between boys and girls accessing apprenticeships, just give equal access and let natural patterns emerge.

 

What is the incentive to companies to take on an apprentice?

The benefit of apprenticeship to an employer is that the government pays for the training.  If the cost of a scheme is shared in this way, with the employer paying a wage and another party paying for training, an employer is more likely to be willing to take on an apprentice.  Apprenticeships also offer an employer an opportunity for peer mentoring, succession planning and to ‘grow your own workforce’. It inspires loyalty and can improve sickness records. However, these benefits are identified anecdotally; there has been no study undertaken to demonstrate the economic benefits. 

 

Kent’s businesses are mainly small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs); there are very few big companies.  How do you reach SMEs?  Do they take one apprentice each?

SMEs like to mould their own staff and teach them their own ways, and expect a return on this investment once the young person is trained.  In some sectors, eg care, legislation says that an employer has to train their workforce. We can reach SMEs by our Small Business team, and we do include very small companies, eg a father and son decorating firm. For SMEs who could not take on an apprentice for a whole course, we run a model like one in use in Australia, in which employers club together and offer a young person 3 – 6 months’ work experience in one company and then move them round to another company in the group.

 

I think those of us who are shareholders in companies should raise the question of apprenticeships at a company’s AGM, and ask what the company offers in terms of apprenticeships, and what it intends to offer in the future.  

 

How does the National Apprenticeship Service fit with Armed Forces recruitment?  Do you work together?

We work with them a lot. They link to us directly or through a sub-contractor like BAE Systems, which is mainly MOD-funded.  We do recruit apprentices for and through the Armed Forces. 

 

I know that Mid Kent College has a huge contract (approx 33,000 places) with the MOD, to train young people for the Armed Forces.

 

As a result of the increase in university fees, apprenticeships are likely to become more popular.  Are you seeing this change yet?

This will lead to the development of the Higher Apprenticeship, and our role is to fund this.  We encourage local training providers to work with universities, and in doing this they have to also work with a local employer.

 

Will this avoid a student paying £9,000 in tuition fees?  Who pays it if they don’t?

The onus is on the employer to pay for training for young people over 19 (16 – 18 year olds get free education and training) and the expectation is that they will take on this cost. 

 

How can the KCC support the Federation of Small Businesses and Chambers of Commerce to encourage smaller employers to offer more apprenticeships?

I work with the Economic Development Unit of the KCC and there is much work going on. NAS also links well with the Chambers of Commerce, but I am not so involved with this aspect so I cannot tell you much about this.

 

What impact does the minimum wage have on Apprenticeships?  Does this dissuade employers?

There is a relaxation of the minimum wage rules while a young person is receiving training, and we work with the Low Pay Commission on this. An apprentice receiving training will be paid a minimum of £95.00 per week, which is below the minimum wage, but this rate will change in August 2011.  This equates to £2.75 an hour, based on the expectation that they will work 30 hours a week. This doesn’t equate to a very high wage but most employers want to pay more, and many do pay substantially more than this.

 

What can the Select Committee do to promote apprenticeships to employers?

There are various ways.  There are financial incentives; a wage subsidy is always welcomed by SMEs.  A scheme which paid a £2,500 pa subsidy was very well received, but there are difficulties in administering the funding. It would be very helpful if the Select Committee could raise the profile of this issue, and the issue of engagement with SMEs for succession training.

 

What if red tape could be reduced and administrative support increased?

I think apprenticeships should be as uncomplicated as possible for a company, and complexities reduced wherever possible.  Training providers should bear the complications and deal with the red tape.

 

Colleges and training providers seem to be quite diverse.  What is the position in Kent?  Would the introduction of a Quality Mark help?

For the academic year 2009/10, 1,617 young people aged 16 – 18 started apprenticeships. In the same period in 2010/11, the figure was 1,938.  These are good results and are above the regional average.  Two years ago we gave Local Authorities a target to increase take-up by 20%, but our duty only relates to setting national, not regional, targets.  Kent falls short of achieving the national target, and although we will seek to reach it, it will be a big challenge.  Kent does have a good record overall but tends to involve older students, ie sixth formers.

 

The Select Committee has been told that awareness of apprenticeships among Grammar School students is quite low.  I had friends who dropped out of sixth form after one year and discovered that they had lost out on one year of an apprenticeship scheme. Why do Grammar Schools seem to miss out on getting the message?  Is it because the Further Education colleges are the main promoters?  As Further Education colleges have a financial incentive to keep young people on a course, is there a danger that they will try to keep young people on their books even if the apprenticeship course is not suitable for them?

NAS has some responsibility to spread the message via our website.  We don’t run direct campaigns as our focus is on employers.  Further Education colleges have more motivation to spread the message as there is a financial incentive for them, but if they are influenced by this it is more often to keep a young person on a course when they should encourage them to go into an apprenticeship instead.  However, they are influenced as much by the fact that traditional, classroom-based courses are easier to deliver than other styles of training.

 

If someone completes Level 2, are they counted again as a new starter when they move on to Level 3?

Yes they are.  Figures do show up these second-stage starters but I do not have detailed figures readily to hand. I can advise you later if this would be helpful.

 

Considering your vision of Kent, is there a place where you could say that apprenticeships really aren’t working well?

The biggest challenge is SMEs and the level of work we have to do with them to promote apprenticeships.  We would like to work more closely with them.