Agenda item

Mrs P A V Stockell, Chairman of Selection and Member Services Committee, and Mr P Sass, Head of Democratic Services and Local Leadership, will attend the meeting from 11.00 am to 11.30 am to answer Members’ questions on this item.

Mr Cope declared a personal interest as Chairman of Kent and Medway Fire and Rescue Authority.

Mr Christie had originally requested that this item be called for scrutiny by the Committee. 

Mr Sass explained that places were allocated on the Kent and Medway Fire Authority in accordance with the proportionality principles in the Local Government and Housing Act 1989.  The places should be allocated to each political group in proportion to the size of each political group on the Council.  A political group is defined in the regulations as two or more Members.  Proportionality was largely mathematical but it was impossible to give a part of a seat to a Member so inevitably there would be an element of rounding up or rounding down in order to allocate places.  KCC appointed 21 Members to the Fire Authority and the simple method explained that 21 Members was exactly one quarter of 84, one quarter of 74 was 18.5 and a quarter of 2 was a half.  At the Selection and Member Services Committee in July there was no agreement about whether the Conservative or Labour group should be given the final seat on the Fire Authority so Mr Sass was asked to take the decision in consultation with the Chairman of the Selection and Member Services Committee.  Mr Sass explained that he applied the same proportionality calculations to the Fire Authority appointments as those agreed at the Selection and Member Services Committee and reported to the County Council.  Those calculations demonstrated the Conservative group were entitled to that seat by two thousandths of one percent. 

Mrs Dean asked whether Mr Sass was aware of any further negotiations at a political level regarding this issue.  Mr Sass stated that he was not involved with any such discussions.  Mrs Stockell explained that she had asked Mr Sass to check that the proportionality figures were correct, the same proportionality rules had always applied on all Council Committees and Mr Wild also checked that the calculations were accurate.  Mr A King explained that his recollection of the meeting was that there had been no opportunity for Members to see the Fire Authority calculations in advance of the meeting and it was therefore suggested that it be delegated to the Head of Democratic Services and Local Leadership in consultation with the Chairman of the Selection and Member Services Committee.  Mr A King stated that it was entirely right that the same rules be applied in this instance as were applied for all other Committees.

Members asked Mr Sass for clarification on the figures contained within the report.  Mrs Dean confirmed to Members that the same figure was applied in the first tranche of Committee allocations as in the second tranche, which included the allocations to the Fire Authority.  Mr Christie asked what other considerations were taken into account when deciding whether the remaining seat should be allocated to the Conservative group or the Labour group.  He pointed out that the Liberal Democrat Group had been given a seat on the Kent/Medway Joint Police Authority Appointments Committee when mathematically they were not entitled to a seat.  Mrs Stockell stated that the allocations were based on the proportionality calculations agreed at the last County Council meeting.

Mr Kite expressed his concern about the line of questioning that was being put to Mr Sass, Mr Kite asked whether at any point Mr Sass had reached another conclusion about the Membership of the Fire Authority and was then told to overturn it.  Mr Sass explained that he was not given any instructions by any Member of the Conservative group to come to a specific conclusion.  Mr Parry asked Mr A King whether he was confident that the right decision had been made on this occasion.  Mr A. King responded that yes, it was a difficult situation, but that Mr Sass had taken the justifiable solution. 

Mr R. King asked whether the appointment to the Fire Authority was paid, Mrs Dean confirmed that there was a basic allowance of £1,300. 

In response to a point from Mr Christie, Mr Sass stated that the Committee was perfectly entitled to ask the questions that it had done and hoped that the Committee had received a full explanation of the issue.

At the conclusion of this item the Chairman asked that the witnesses were not present during the Committee’s discussions over its recommendations. 

Mr Christie stated that at no time had he advocated that he would be the Labour Member, but that the Labour Group was entitled to a seat.  Mr Christie proposed that the issue should be referred back to the Cabinet, or the relevant Committee, Mrs Dean seconded. 

Mr Parry commented on the amount of time spent on discussing this issue, in his opinion far too much time had been spent on it. 

Mr Kite stated that the Council’s Committees were still dealing with the fall out from the election.  He stated that the maths were right and that had led to Mr Sass making his decision. 

Mr Lees stated that the report was clear but there had to be a cut off point and the Committee should move forward with the recommendation made by Mr Sass. 

Mr Poole, the Parent Governor Representative, expressed his view as a resident of Kent.  It had been acknowledged that the maths were not always the final deciding factor, that there were some political agreements over and above the maths.  Mr Poole understood why the Labour group didn’t have a seat on the Committee but as an independent person he could see no reason why a Member of the Labour group could not be on the Fire Authority.  Mr Poole stated that the Council had come across as not being flexible, and did not come across well. 

Mrs Dean agreed that in terms of maths it proved that the Labour group was not entitled to a seat, however it was clear that all the groups had a degree of negotiation to reflect Members expertise.  Mr Christie had huge experience of the Fire Service and had connections with the government so in the opinion of the Chairman the decision to exclude him would be to the detriment of the Kent and Medway Fire and Rescue Authority.

Members voted on Mr Christie’s proposal but the proposal was not carried.

The Cabinet Scrutiny Committee:

-          Thanked Mr A King, Mrs Stockell and Mr Sass for attending the meeting and answering Members’ questions.