Agenda and minutes

Mr Christie declared a personal interest in the item on the Gravesham Neighbourhood Forum pilot, as a local Member

Mr Simmonds declared a personal interest in the item on the Sevenoaks Academy, because of his previous involvement in the establishment of academies.

Following the sad and untimely passing of Mr John Law, the Chairman welcomed Mrs Jean Law to her first meeting of the Committee.

RESOLVED: That the minutes of the previous meeting held on 24 September were approved as a correct record.

Mrs Dean expressed her frustration that the Cabinet was still resolving to note this Committee’s recommendations, instead of responding in a constructive way, which called into question the view of scrutiny within the authority. She added that, if the Cabinet merely noted this Committee’s recommendations, it was not clear whether the Cabinet was in agreement, or not, or held some other view.

Mr Sass stated that the timetable meant that the Cabinet Scrutiny Committee agenda was despatched the day after the Cabinet met and it was often not possible to obtain cleared Cabinet Minutes in time for them to be included in the agenda papers and that the report referred to the fact that an oral update would be provided. Mrs Taylor stated that, with regard to the item of senior staff changes, Mr Gilroy had advised Cabinet that that he and his Chief Officer colleagues had been puzzled by the concerns raised by the Cabinet Scrutiny Committee (expressed at the September meeting). The changes that had taken place as a result of people deciding to leave and the interim management appointments that had been made ensured management continuity and had provided an opportunity to now reflect on the future managerial shape of the Council. All permanent appointments when made would go through the normal procedures for posts at this level.

In response to a question from Mrs Dean, Mr Sass undertook to obtain further details of how the proposed partnering arrangements between KCC and Worcestershire County Council would work in relation to the management of the highways service.

RESOLVED: That the report be noted.

The Chairman stated that the meeting of the IMG could have been avoided, had Members of this Committee been informed that the whole contractual basis had changed, in that it was now proposed that KCC would be a sub contractor, which meant that the financial risk involved was minimal. This major change to the proposed arrangements had removed most of the IMG’s concerns about the proposals.

Mrs Dean stated that Mr Ferrin’s comments in the IMG notes that the condition of A and B roads in Kent was above average when compared using the BVPI’s across the country was not consistent with his comments at the Council meeting in October, when he said that KCC was not investing enough money to even begin to tackle the backlog of outstanding repairs. Mr Sass undertook to seek further comment from Mr Ferrin and the Highways service and report back to this Committee.

RESOLVED: That the notes of the IMG on Motorways and Trunk Roads be noted and the recommendations contained therein be approved.

Referring to the recommendation of the Budget IMG that the Policy Overview Committees should be encouraged to consider setting up their own cross-party IMG’s to consider the budget proposals, Mr Smyth stated that small groups of Members meeting informally is a very effective way of scrutinising the details, without the pressure on time caused by other agenda items. He stressed, though, that Policy Overview Committees would not be committed to this approach and he had no intention of denying the Committees a full debate on the budget at their November meetings.

Mr Harrison stated that the full Policy Overview Committees was a vital mechanism for involving and engaging backbench and opposition Members, which would be diminished if key issues such as the budget was only debated by a small group of Members. Other Members echoed this view. Mr Smyth stated that there was no attempt whatsoever to suppress the vital role played by the Policy Overview Committees and that it would be up to them how to deal with their consideration of the budget proposals.

RESOLVED: That the notes of the Informal Member Group on Budgetary Issues held on 9 October 2008 be noted and the recommendation to encourage the Policy Overview Committees to consider setting up their own IMG’s for the consideration of the budget proposals be agreed.

The Chairman advised the Committee that, in relation to the item on treasury management, he had been advised that a representative of Butlers would now not be in attendance, as they had considered that their attendance would be more appropriate after the completion of the PWC report. He also stated that he had been contacted by Mr Sass shortly before the start of the Committee meeting to ask for his views on a request from Meridian Television to film during the Committee’s consideration of the treasury management item. He confirmed that he had agreed to the filming.

A number of Members expressed the view that they would not have supported such a request on the grounds that the meeting was webcast in any event, the television companies had plenty of footage about the Icelandic situation that they could use already and that Members wanted to debate the issues constructively without the added factor of having television cameras on them.

Mr Sass advised that the Constitution gave power to the Chairman of a Committee to authorise recordings of Committee proceedings by a media organisation (Appendix 4 Part 2) and that he had only been made aware of the request at approximately 9.30am on the day of the meeting. He had spoken to the Chairman approximately 10 minutes later, who had given his consent to the recording. Mr Simmonds and Mrs Dean stated that, as spokespersons for the Committee, an attempt should have been made to contact them about the filming request before the meeting commenced.

Mr M C Dance, Cabinet Member for Operations, Resources and Skills (CFE), and Ms C Lay, Area Children’s Services Officer (Sevenoaks), will attend the meeting from 10.15 am to 11.00 am to answer Members’ questions on this item.

The Chairman welcomed Mr M C Dance, Cabinet Member for Operations, Resources and Skills (CFE) and Ms C Lay, Area Children’s Services Officer (Sevenoaks & Tunbridge Wells), to the meeting.

The Chairman referred to the Briefing Note that had been circulated to Committee Members, as background information after the agenda had been despatched. This had been prepared for local Members at the very beginning of consideration of an academy for Sevenoaks.

In response to a question from Mr Smyth about the governance arrangements, Ms Lay explained that the Sevenoaks Academy was at a very early stage, in line with the four key stages set out in the Briefing Note. The Expression of Interest (EoI) a very first stage, had yet to gain ministerial approval. Should this be forthcoming, a Project Steering Group would be established, normally chaired by the lead sponsor and part of its task would be to establish the Academy Trust and agree governance arrangements.  KCC would be represented on the Steering Group as co-sponsor. With regard to the governance arrangements for the academy itself, Ms Lay referred to the comment in the Briefing Note about the likely composition of the Academy Trust. Mr Dance stated that it was too early to say what the process would be to select and appoint the individuals who would form the Trust, which in turn would establish the Governing Body.

Mr Horne asked about the determination of the site and whether any detailed analysis had been done in relation to the cost of transporting children to the new academy. Ms Lay stated that the EoI had to include reference to the preferred site for the academy but that, subject to the approval of the EoI, the proposals would be subject to rigorous examination. In response to a further question from Mr Horne, Ms Lay stated that the capital cost of academies was provided by central government and revenue also came directly from central government, not via KCC. Effectively, academies were regarded as independent schools within the maintained sector.

The Chairman referred to the Briefing Note, stating that academies were usually located in areas of disadvantage and he questioned whether Sevenoaks was such an area. Mr Dance stated that there were pockets of deprivation in the Sevenoaks area that would rival deprivation levels anywhere else and he supported the provision of an academy in that area.

Mr Christie stated that an academy was a way of jumping the queue for BSF resources. He also expressed concern about the governance arrangements, with particular reference to the role of parent governors and the 2 head teachers of the schools that were proposed to be replaced by the academy.

Mrs Dean stated that, because Sevenoaks did not currently have a grammar school, a large number of children who passed the 11 plus had to travel outside Sevenoaks to attend other schools. She asked whether the academy would be a grammar school by another name and sought an assurance that there would be no  ...  view the full minutes text for item 99.

Mr A J King, Deputy Leader, and Mr W Farmer, Community Liaison Manager (Gravesham), will attend the meeting from 11.00 am to 11.45 am to answer Members’ questions on this item.

The Chairman welcomed Mr A H T Bowles, Lead Member and Mr W Farmer, Community Liaison Manager to the meeting.

Mr Christie began the discussion by stating that he had been involved in some of the negotiations about the pilot and that he welcomed the concept of neighbourhood forums. He questioned the governance arrangements, stating that it was difficult to ensure that the membership of the forums reflected the political balance of both the County Council and Gravesham Borough Council in each area. He added that he believed that the Urban Forums should be chaired by KCC in the first year because of their experience in running the local boards and he also remarked that the Parish Councils did not wish to take on the chairmanship of the rural forum in year one. Finally, he stated that the chairmen of the forums should be selected by the members of each relevant forum, not the respective group leaders.

Mr Bowles began by stating that those involved in negotiating the arrangements for the Gravesham pilots had sought to learn from the Dover experience and, in particular, to seek to add clarity to the issue of chairmanship, which wasn’t made clear in the Dover pilot. He added, however, that it was important for the final decision on membership and chairmen to be made at a local level, which of course would be reviewed at the end of the pilot phase.

Mr Cowan echoed the comments of Mr Christie with regard to the chairmen being selected by the forum members, not the group leaders. Mr Bowles stated that the arrangements were agreed by Gravesham Borough Council. Mr Farmer stated that a report was made to the Cabinet at Gravesham Borough Council in July. Mr Christie stated that the position had changed after the report to the July Cabinet and asked for further clarification on how the changes had been made, which Mr Farmer undertook to provide outside the meeting.

Mrs Stockell stated that it shouldn’t matter who the Chairman was, as a vote was not usually required.

Mr Harrison expressed his concern about the funding for localism in the County and asked for an assurance that appropriate resources will be provided as required, particularly for publicising the meetings. Mr Bowles stated that he welcomed Mr Harrison’s support for localism being funded properly and the Leader of KCC had undertaken to provide appropriate resources. He also stated that arrangements were currently in hand to appoint additional staff for the localism team, to provide necessary support for the pilot phase.

Mrs Law asked whether the localism arrangements were seeking to address a government priority and a priority of KCC. Mr Bowles agreed.

RESOLVED: That (1) our Committee notes the development of joint neighbourhood forums for Gravesham for a one year pilot and wishes the individuals involved every success;

(2) the final timetable of meetings for the 3 forums be circulated to Members of our Committee as soon as it is available;

(3) our Committee was pleased  ...  view the full minutes text for item 100.

Mr A Marsh, Cabinet Member for Public Health, and Mr M Lemon, Head of Policy, Department of Public Health, will attend the meeting from 11.45 am to 12.45 pm to answer Members’ questions on this item.

The Chairman welcomed Mr R A Marsh, Cabinet Member for Public Health and Mr M Lemon, Head of Policy (Public Health), to the meeting.

The Chairman stated that this was the third occasion this matter had come to this Committee. He added that there had been a delay in launching Health Watch and asked what the reasons for the delay was?

Mr Marsh stated that the timetable for the launch of Health Watch had been driven by previous events and that it takes time to launch an innovative idea. He added that he had made the decision not to launch 22 September because he wanted to include adult and children’s social services within the overall remit of Health Watch in order to provide a seamless signposting service for the people of Kent.

Mr Harrison stated that he was very impressed with the publicity for the service. He asked whether the budget for the service had included all of the relevant on costs, including those for the contact centre. He added that he was slightly concerned that there had only been 49 calls to the service and enquired as to whether this reflected the need for even more publicity.

Mr Marsh stated that the cost of the Health Watch service of approximately £300k equated to 1p per family per week, even though it was difficult to put a cost on a service that specializes in providing reassurance and advice. He added that, to date, there had been 61 calls to Health Watch in the first 10 days of operation. Mr Harrison stated that he agreed that the service would provide excellent value for money.

The Chairman stated that it would be useful to provide information to the Committee after an appropriate period of time about the number and nature of calls being made to the service. Mr Marsh stated that he would be more than happy to provide appropriate reports, which he suggested should be made each quarter, with a full report in December 2009, both to this Committee and the Health Overview and Scrutiny Committee.

Mrs Stockell stated that it was a responsibility of all Members to assist in publicising the service in their own areas, given the vital nature of the service being provided.

Mr Truelove stated that the extension of the service to social services was welcomed. He stressed that the data being collected must provide information about KCC’s own services, so that appropriate changes could be made to service delivery if required.

In response to a question from Mr Horne, Mr Marsh stated that all calls were signposted to the appropriate professional person in each relevant organisation in the most simple and most efficient way. He also referred to the proposed publicity campaign that was due to start on 1 November.

In response to a further question from Mr Horne, Mr Marsh stated that the service would be provided for as long as it was considered to be appropriate. He added that everyone concerned should be  ...  view the full minutes text for item 101.

The Chairman and Spokespersons of the Committee have requested sight of the CAA consultation response before it is sent. 

No Member or Officer attendance is required for this item.  

The Chairman stated that both he and the spokespersons had now had sight of the proposed response to this consultation document.

It is requested that any further representations included in the response are seen by the Chairman and Spokespersons of the Committee before they are sent. 

No Member or Officer attendance is required for this item.  

The Chairman stated that both he and the spokespersons had now had sight of the proposed response to this consultation document and had asked to be copied into any further changes prior to the consultation deadline.

Mr N J D Chard, Cabinet Member for Finance, Ms L McMullan, Director of Finance, and Mr N Vickers, Head of Financial Services, will attend the meeting from 2.00 pm to 3.00 pm to answer Members’ questions on this item.

The Chairman welcomed Mr N J D Chard, Cabinet Member for Finance, Ms L McMullan, Director of Finance and Mr N Vickers, Head of Financial Management, to the meeting.

Mr Smyth began the debate by asking how decisions on investments were made within KCC. Specifically, he wanted to know more about the role of the Treasury Policy Group (TPG) in terms of deciding where to invest money. Ms McMullan stated that the overall framework for the management of local authority investments is contained within guidance issued by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA). The overall strategy for investments is determined by the full Council each year and contained within the Medium Term Plan. Once the treasury strategy is approved, the Council uses a counter party list, which is based on the ratings provided to the authority on the various banks and other financial institutions. The Treasury Policy Group (TPG) meets on a quarterly basis to discuss the counter party list and decide where the Council should be investing its money and on what terms. Ms McMullan confirmed that officers had delegated authority to make investments, particularly as some investment decisions needed to be made quickly.

In response to a further question from Mr Smyth, Mr Chard stated that there was a clear structure to investments based on the ratings of the relevant institutions. He stressed that KCC does not get direct access to the information held by the 3 ratings agency; only the interpretation of this information by the Council’s advisers, Butlers.  

Mr Northey asked what the Council does when things go wrong. Specifically, he asked what the latest information was about the future of the Icelandic banks and what the likelihood was of KCC receiving a full refund of its invested money and over what timescale. Secondly, he asked what plans KCC had for the future to safeguard other investments if something else unexpected happened. Mr Chard stated that KCC had been very open and transparent about its investments from a very early stage, unlike some of the other 122 local authority investors in Iceland and that certainty was given about KCC’s liquidity and continued ability to pay for its services, salaries, pensions and contractors. He also stated that the Governor of the Bank of England had been quoted in “The Times” to say that the an “extraordinary and unimaginable series of events” had led to the current situation and that “not since the 1^st World War has our banking system been so close to collapse.” He added that all new investments were being made with the Debt Management Office, which whilst completely safe, attracted a much lower rate of interest, which will have an impact on the County Council in terms of it being able to limit council tax increases.

Ms McMullan confirmed that KCC had some £18.35m invested in the Heritable Bank and she referred to the joint release by the LGA and the Administrator, which stated that the assets and liabilities  ...  view the full minutes text for item 104.