Agenda item

(1)       The Chairman welcomed Mrs Perfect to the meeting and asked her to introduce herself before answering questions from Members of the Committee.

(2)       Mrs Perfect said CASE Kent was similar to an old-style council for voluntary services and to avoid mission drift and conflict of interest did not compete for contracts against its members. Mrs Perfect felt that CASE Kent would not be able to advise other organisations on how best to complete procurement documents if they were going to then compete against them.  CASE Kent worked with a range of charities from very small to large ones such as Age UK including   giving advice on legal issues such as setting up and in some cases closure.  Most of the work was with smaller charities which provided a range of services that were valued locally and by users. 

(3)       CASE Kent received an annual grant of £117,000 from the Families and Social Care directorate within KCC.  Originally the purpose of the grant had been to support the charitable sector but more recently FSC had been trying to assign responsibility for particular outcomes allied to their policies and strategies

(4)       Mrs Perfect said CASE Kent had successfully completed the Pre Qualification Questionnaire for the provision of services for children but did not proceed because of the nature of the contracts and the legality of some of the clauses – for example KCC Children Services right to discipline contractors’ employees.  CASE Kent had also tendered for the Men’s Sheds’ project and was interviewed.  The bid was, however, ultimately unsuccessful and Mrs Perfect thought this was because it was marginally more expensive than the successful tender.  KCC should consider may need extra margin for voluntary sector not just go with the cheaper provider. Cheapest does not always come with VFM for the service user and she was concerned that the effect of the current structure could lead to large and small voluntary sector organisations folding.

(5)       Commissioning may know what they want but procurement is almost mathematical. Thinking in simply business-like terms can stifle creativity and sharing of good practice / ideas across the sector. Why would you share in the new commissioning domain it does not make good business sense. 

(6)       Grant funding is not VAT eligible but contacts are. The final arbiter of whether or not VAT is liable is HMRC and they make decisions on a contract by contract basis. The sector is still waiting for HMRC to take a view but the outcome could have huge implications for the sector and associated costs. 

(7)       TUPE raises issues for the sector in terms of the transfer of staff and associated HR, governance and legal costs.

(8)       Tender bidding and presentation do not provide a level playing field regarding the quality of the service ultimately provided. Larger organisations can afford professional expertise for their bids. Smaller organisation are often resource light and do not have the capacity or the experience to complete tender documents. Tendering and contracting for specified services denigrates innovations / good ideas which the grants system enabled to flourish. 

Question – Where you (CASE Kent) bidding for contracts beyond your capacity?

(9)       No. I have the personal capacity and experience from running Age Concern and CASE Kent as an organisation also had experience and capacity.  It felt as if there was a difference in the expectations of the commissioners and providers about what could be done for the money.

Are you saying that KCC should allow a greater budget for the voluntary sector?  Why should KCC not go for the cheapest option?

(10)     It is important to reflect the true cost of providing the services otherwise contracting organisations would not be able to provide the best service to users.   There appeared to be a conflict in that commissioners know what they want the service to look like and the procurement process itself focuses on the financial and mathematical aspects .

Question – Does CASE Kent get involved in discussions with commissioners?

(11)     No but over the last 5 years CASE Kent has attended meetings about services for older people.  The commissioners of services tend to talk to providers (such as Age UK), user groups (such as Carers’ Association) and umbrella organisations.  FSC had also been clear that they do not want lots of small contracts. 

Question – Meet the market events appear to work for other sectors.  Why does the voluntary sector appear reluctant to get involved in such events?

(12)     The charitable sector is diverse in both size and in its beneficiaries.  Individual charities tended to be risk averse and their resources are becoming increasingly limited.  When grants were available from local authorities, primary care trusts and other sources for projects there was an element of “give it a go”.  With the commissioning model the time and resources required to go through the tendering process was  disproportionate to the size of the contract and beyond the capacity of many charities.   

Question – Do you get involved if a provider is failing to provide the service it has been commissioned for?

(13)     Yes.  For example, it became clear that Age Concern Ramsgate ran into difficulties and Age Concern Broadstairs was insolvent and operating illegally.  Both were visited by Age UK and CASE Kent got involved too.  Age Concern Thanet has now been established but were no longer able to provide direct services to users in Ramsgate and Broadstairs. 

Question – Was the decommissioning of these services carried out to your satisfaction?

(14)     It was a difficult process for KCC but KCC did well because it did not dictate but advised about particular actions to be taken.

Question – Could CASE Kent have provided the service that KCC was expecting?

(15)     Only by sub-contracting to other charities.  KCC passes responsibility for delivering the service to a main provider who then passes it proportionately to its sub-contactors

(16)     It is harder than it was 5 years ago for charities to secure funding.

Question – Do you have any additional funding?

(17)     No, CASE Kent did have central government grant of £250,000 pa, but  that funding has ceased, so  the charity is currently running in part on reserves. It is very difficult to find philanthropic funding pots for ‘second tier’ charities.

Question – How many employees are there at CASE Kent?

(18)     There are 7 direct employees which equates to 5 full time equivalents.

Question – Will the Social Value Act make a difference to CASE Kent’s ability to secure contracts even when they are not the cheapest bidder?

(19)     It does not feel possible for a potential contractor to express a view that the specification could not be delivered for the price commissioners prepared to pay. Charities often had concerns about the quality of the services to the end users.  For example the contract for services at the Minor Injuries Unit in Faversham has not been let because none of those tendering could meet the specification. 

(20)     Changes to providers can make it difficult for users to access support and services.

Question – Could two or more charities come together to enable them tender for a contract?

(21)     It is possible to form consortia but a lead organisation to take on the responsibility and the risk is still required. An element fee or payment  to incorporate that risk would be required.

Question – What are the principal barriers to charities tendering for contracts?

(22)     The cost of tendering in terms of time and knowledge as well as the size of the contracts being let by KCC particularly FSC. The domiciliary care tender is an example where the contracts will be operated by ‘super charities’ and private organisations to the detriment of smaller local organisations serving their communities.  There have already been 92 appeals relating to the new contracts being offered and subsequent tender process.

(23)     Trustees can be very risk averse – it is imperative for organisation to have the correct trustee skill mix (including commercial savvy) 

(24)     Forming consortia to provide specific services – they cannot be formed quickly as they involve ‘buy in’ not only from managers but also from trustees. The voluntary sector is more business like generally but cannot always move at the same speed as business due to its different structure.