Agenda item

Professor Gordon MacKerron (Professor of Science & Technology Policy & Co-Director of the Sussex Energy Group, University of Sussex) and Emily Cox (PhD Research Assistant, University of Sussex & Oxford) were in attendance for this item.

(1)          The Chairman welcomed the guests to the meeting and invited them to introduce themselves. Emily stated that she was a Research Assistant and PhD student at the University of Sussex; she also taught a Masters course on Energy Policy. Professor MacKerron stated that he was an economist specialising in the economics of electricity particularly nuclear power; he was currently researching the economics of new build nuclear power stations: waste and decommissioning; modelling climate change risk and reducing energy demand. 

Q – What is the future for Dungeness as a nuclear power site?

(2)          Professor MacKerron noted the Government’s recent announcement of £250 million funding for nuclear research into a small modular reactor. He stated that from reading the evidence published by the Government, he felt that there was very little interest in Dungeness being a future site due to the risk of coastal erosion and flooding. He reported that a small modular reactor would not be available for a minimum of 20 years.

(3)          Ms Cox explained that in terms of Kent, the output of a nuclear power station was 400 kV and went directly into the grid for distribution; the power was not retained in the local area. She noted that it may be possible for smaller reactors to connect to the lower voltage electricity network. 

Q - Should the UK have a root (big suppliers) or branch (small suppliers) system?

(4)          Ms Cox stated that it was difficult to say one was better than the other. She noted that the centralised National Grid was a key piece of infrastructure and it was pragmatic to work with that. She reported, however, that there was significant investment in distributed generation in mainland Europe particularly in Germany. She stated that Kent had one of the largest increases of distributed generation in the UK over the past year. She explained that distributed generation was produced by solar panels on houses, community energy projects and small windfarms; the electricity generated was connected to local distribution networks rather than the National Grid transmission network which had multiple implications for energy security.

Q – Following the announcement of China being allowed to develop nuclear power stations in the UK, is their technology as advanced as the UK?

(5)          Professor MacKerron explained that the development of Chinese nuclear power stations in the UK was part of a wider partnership deal between China and the UK. He stated that the UK had not had a nuclear capability for many years. The system proposed for Bradwell in Essex would be a Chinese design adapted from the American Westinghouse design. He reported that China had the intellectual property rights to the reactor design and there were no restrictions on the Chinese selling the reactor design. He noted that China would pay for a third of the nuclear power plant at Hinkley Point, Somerset and fully fund the Bradwell plant.

Q – How can excess electricity, produced by distributed generation, be fed into the National Grid?

(6)          Ms Cox stated that it was expensive to upgrade the network system to allow this and it was done on a case by case basis. She noted that there was a pattern of distributed generation power centres producing excess electricity for their local networks across the country and it was a shame for the electricity to be wasted. She reported that the energy regulator Ofgem’s remit was to ensure reliable power for the least cost and it was therefore difficult to integrate renewable electricity onto the National Grid. She noted that Ofgem was working on incentives for renewable energy. Professor MacKerron noted that the regulatory system had not yet caught up with technology. Ms Cox reported that there was regulatory confusion about distributor sites and distribution operators owning generation assets.

Q – There are frequent reports in the media that the ‘lights will go out’, is this true?

(7)          Ms Cox explained that academics had reached different conclusions about the risks of an energy shortfall. Ms Cox stated that she personally felt that there was no danger of this happening in the UK anytime soon. She noted that UK did have a problem with the age of its power stations and emergency measures to reduce demand were implemented in November. She stated that power stations were turned off for the summer period and when they were turned back on in November, many of the older power stations reported problems. The emergency measures implemented by the National Grid were to ensure the grid was resilient to power stations not working; measures included industrial consumers being asked to reduce their usage for an hour. She reported that the UK had had a spare supply for a long time and demand for energy has been reducing fairly consistently despite the economy rebounding. She stated that a more interconnected grid, with countries importing and exporting, made for a more efficient energy market.

Professor MacKerron stated that he agreed with Ms Cox; it was positive to have a spare surplus which could be exported as it was more efficient and cheaper. He reported that the National Grid often published things to make the outlook as pessimistic as possible.

Q – The output through nuclear has been declining, how has this been managed?

(8)          Professor MacKerron explained that the reactors in the UK were relatively modern, using designs from the 1970s, which were still working well and had a life expectancy until 2020. He stated that there had been a deliberate phased reduction of old reactors such as Dungeness A which were too expensive and did not conform to current standards. Ofgem, National Grid and the Department of Energy & Climate Change were fully aware of the reduction and had managed the process to ensure that it did not cause any problems. He stated that replacements to nuclear included gas turbine and wind power. He reported that the current situation was not substantially worse than before.

(9)          Ms Cox stated that to ensure energy security, a coherent long term policy was required; the UK did not have this at present. She reported that short term changes and policy resets for political aims, such as changes to wind farms, spooked investors and diverted investment to elsewhere.

Q – What are your views on community energy provision through biogas?

(10)       Ms Cox explained that she was a supporter of biogas; it was low carbon and flexible (could be turned on and off) which was good for energy security. She noted, however, that anaerobic digestion was expensive and required very diverse industries talking to each other.

Q – What are your predictions for nuclear going forward in terms of cost and timescales?

(11)       In response to a comment about subsidies for Hinkley Point Nuclear Power Station, Professor MacKerron stated that subsidies would come from the consumers not the public and would not start until completion in 2025 – the power station was originally scheduled to be completed by Christmas 2017.

(12)       Professor MacKerron explained that the same type of power station planned for Hinkley Point was running nine years late at three times the cost in Finland and five years late in France; both were liable for court action. He noted that the boiling water reactor and the Westinghouse reactor had never been completed anywhere in the world. He reported that it was also difficult to gain approval and raise the finances for a nuclear power station in Western Europe and the USA. He highlighted that the Government’s promotion of nuclear and fracking did not guarantee the political and economic security, at the scale that they would wish.

Q – Is there a replacement for uranium?

(13)       Professor MacKerron explained that uranium was a plentiful resource; if it did run out thorium could be used instead. He stated that fast breeder reactors used more uranium than thermal reactors. Ms Cox reported that the fuel was a tiny proportion, 2%, of the overall cost of a power station; if the cost increased it would not cause problems.

Q – What is the health impact of nuclear power?

(14)       Professor MacKerron stated that he was not able to comment as it was not his area of expertise.

Q – How safe is the Westinghouse nuclear technology?

(15)       Professor MacKerron stated that Westinghouse was in the process of designing a passive reactor which could be shut down by gravity and convection. The design was significantly safer than current reactors. A Westinghouse reactor was not involved in the Three Mile Island nuclear meltdown.

Q – Did high energy prices cause Tata Steel to withdraw production from the UK?

(16)       Ms Cox reported that cheap Chinese imports of steel were the main cause for Tata’s withdrawal; there was huge Chinese public investment in steel production which the UK could not compete with.  She noted that energy costs were less than 1% of the total cost of steel production in the UK. She stated that Tata’s decision to withdraw before the Government’s statement was interesting; it suggested political manoeuvring by Tata in an attempt to reduce energy costs.

Q – Can the UK produce more than 15 – 20% of its energy through renewables?

(17)       Ms Cox stated that she thought it would be possible for the UK to produce more than 15 – 20% of its energy through renewables but it was unrealistic for renewables to produce 100% of the UK’s energy. She highlighted the academic David Mackay’s argument that there was not enough physical resource in the UK to meet its energy needs. She reported that biomass was a crucial factor as it could be turned into fuel; wind, solar and nuclear could only produce electricity. Professor MacKerron stated that it was more important to reduce demand; he noted it was useful to use Terrawatt hours, instead of percentages, in terms of energy production.

Q – Can you comment on natural gas?

(18)       Ms Cox explained that the natural gas supply was secure; the UK imported gas from Belgium, the Netherlands and Norway which were stable countries. She noted that the UK used to burn coal instead of gas as it was cheaper. She reported that there was work to be done on gas storage in the UK.

Q – What can Kent County Council do to promote energy security?

(19)       Ms Cox stated that the County Council should focus on reducing demand through information campaigns and encouraging behaviour change. She noted that it was important for the public to understand how the energy system worked and why energy demand should be reduced.

(20)       She explained that the County Council should work with UK Power Network and local Distribution Network Operators; the energy industry was under challenge and it was important for the Council to find out what it could do to help them.

(21)       She noted that weather had the biggest impact on the energy system and it was important for the energy infrastructure to be protected from severe weather events which could become more frequent and severe with climate change. She highlighted the importance of the Council cutting back trees and putting in place flood prevention measures.

(22)       She also suggested that the Council should work with community groups and grassroots organisations that were developing locally produced energy.