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  • Agenda item
  • Agenda item

    John Coull (Detective Superintendent, Kent and Essex Serious Crime Directorate Intelligence, Kent Police) and Guy Thompson (Chief Inspector - Partnerships & Communities, Kent Police)

    Minutes:

     

    The Chair welcomed the guest to the committee and asked them to introduce themselves and provide an outline of the roles and responsibilities that their posts involve.

     

    John Coull, Detective Superintendent, Kent and Essex Serious Crime Directorate Intelligence, Kent Police

     

    John Coull is a Kent Police Officer with 24 years’ service, predominantly within crime investigation and intelligence. With extensive experience in dealing with proactive and serious crime investigation in East and North Kent, including Medway Council, John has led on murder, serious sexual assault and serious violence investigations.

     

    Prior to joining the Kent and Essex Serious Crime Directorate in 2016, John was the lead officer for the Margate Task Force, responsible for the delivery of multi-agency, multi-disciplinary service to diverse and complex communities in Thanet. This included facilitating the first Home Office Ending Gangs and Youth Violence peer review in the County.

     

    John contributed to the development of the Kent and Essex Gang and County Lines strategies and assisted in the development of the Kent and Medway Gangs Strategy.

     

    John has portfolio responsibility for Gangs and County Lines in Kent and Essex, and for support on the Serious Violence Strategy for Kent.

     

     

    Guy Thompson, Chief Inspector – Partnerships & Communities, Kent Police

     

    Chief Inspector Thompson joined Kent Police in 1993 and has been involved in Community Policing and Community Safety for most of his service at different ranks. He is a qualified crime reduction officer and has recently been the Community Safety Inspector for Dover District.

     

    More recently, as Chief Inspector, Thompson was given the professional lead for Community Safety Units across Kent, and is the Force lead for Neighbourhood Policing, Hate Crime, Drugs Prevention and Licensing. He also has portfolio responsibility for Young People, Youth Justice, Community Cohesion, and is Chair of the Kent Community Safety Team working group.

     

     

    Q - Please discuss the issues around crime recording and their impact on the increase in reported crime.

     

    On 8th November 2018, Kent Police decommissioned the existing crime recording system ‘Genesis’ and transferred onto the new fully integrated IT system ‘Athena’ whereby officers and staff benefitted from having access to other forces intelligence data. The improved recording and methodology of extracting information also enhanced the Police’s ability to identify different markings of crime which had a significant impact on the perceived increase of crime levels. Mr Coull assured the Committee that crime levels had been consistent since the systems implementation in November and that a review of the system had been carried out to ensure that the figures were a correct reflection of the current crime levels. Mr Coull provided an example of the crime recording data prior to the implementation of Athena and said that there were 200,000 recorded incidents of shoplifting with only 4 of those involving an element on knife crime. Upon the implementation of the new intelligence system Kent Police acknowledged that there would be an administrative increase in knife crime, however, the statistics would now reflect an accurate picture of crime levels opposed to those captured previously.

     

    Reported crime and crime recording standards had been under scrutiny for a number of years, however, Kent Police had recently been graded as ‘outstanding’ having undergone an inspection by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services (HMICFRS).

     

     

    Q - What are the most effective initiatives and strategies that can be implemented to tackle knife crime?

     

    With regard to strategies to tackle knife crime, the Scotland Violence Reduction Unit remained a leading example where good practice can be seen and was established 10 years ago as a result of increased homicide rates and affiliated factors. At the same time in 2008/2009 there was a Home Affairs Select Committee for England and Wales and in Kent the Police established the Tackling Knives and Serious Youth Violence programme (TKaP). Mr Thompson said that partnership and early intervention programmes were key in tackling issues around knife crime/ gang related crime. Programmes aimed at changing norms and values towards violence at a young age had shown some promising effects and in the UK these programmes were often aimed at children aged between 8 to 13. Whilst the Police acknowledge their role in helping to tackle knife crime, early prevention needed to start in schools and communities where those vulnerable children could be easily identified and managed appropriately from a young age to deter them from a life of criminality. Mr Thompson informed the Committee that Kent Police had a central referral unit that dealt with cases of high level child abuse, however, there was a gap in the system which failed to recognise those children who do not receive the correct level of help from an early age or at the right time and that was an essential piece of work that needed to be done going forward. Mr Thompson said that Kent Police, in partnership with other agencies needed to look at why people are turning to carrying knives, why young people feel like they need to carry knives, why young people are getting excluded from school and the management around those exclusions.

     

    He informed the Committee that Academies posed a greater risk of children moving into gang related crime/ knife crime as it was often more difficult to work with Academy schools compared to Local Authority schools. The level of engagement did differ across the county depending on the principle of the organisation. For those academies that understood the issues, they were willing to engage, but there were many academies that don’t want to engage with the Police to help tackle the issue. Kent Police had worked with a number of  Youth Offending Services across the county, however, these had recently undergone a restructure and Kent Police were waiting to see what the new structure looked like and review what they could do to support the new adolescent risk process  and how this could be aligned to schools.

     

    Q – Please provide an account of the impact of gangs and “County Lines” in Kent.

     

    Mr Coull informed the Committee that Kent Police had secured extra ring-fenced funding from the Home Office to carry out surge activity with a specific focus on knife related crime hot-spots and County Lines issues which has generated its own problems, these included: territorial issues in terms of drug related business sales, the couriering of drugs, the carrying of knives for self-protection, those that have been victimised by County Lines; and the mental health issues/ public health issues that transpire in those that have been a victim of criminality.

     

    Mr Coull said that Kent had a prominent drug user market (predominantly crack and heroin) and that County Lines had been an ongoing issue for years, however, whereas previous activity primarily focused on the local disruption of the drug trade, Kent Police were now focusing on identifying the source of the problem (London) in an attempt to collapse the County Line in its entirety rather than dealing with the problem at its final destination.

     

    Mr Coull informed the Committee that Kent Police had executed more than 70 warrants and arrested over 370 people that were linked to County Lines and violence since April. He reminded Members that not all of the arrests would have a direct link to knife crime, however, the priority offenders would often have a tendency to either carry a knife or would have been involved in an unreported knife related offence.

     

     

    Q - In your view, in what ways can different KCC services help to reduce the incidence and impact of knife crime in Kent?

     

    Mr Thompson addressed the work that was being carried out by Trading Standards to reduce the sale of knives, the Government was also looking to bring in new legislation to ban home delivery of knives. Mr Thompson informed the Committee that Trading Standards were also looking to pilot test purchase operations, this would require an element of funding and increased resources, both of which could be provided through the support of Kent County Council.

    https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives

     

    Mr Thompson also addressed the issue of early intervention and the work that could be done within schools. He referred in particular to the work that had been done by the Scottish Violence Reduction Unit to develop prevention mechanisms that specifically targeted those at risk of either committing violence, or being the victim of violence and how they had worked in partnership with the Police and education authorities to produce a standardised and agreed approach to tackling issues of violence and related offences such as knife crime. By investing in the correct training and education, with particular focus on those children who are due to make the transition from year 6 into year 7, it will help provide those who are most vulnerable with the skills, knowledge and resilience to keep themselves safe. Mr Thompson said that the Home Office had worked in conjunction with the Personal, Social, Health and Economic (PSHE) Association and teachers to create new and improved school curriculum materials on knife crime and that teachers were sent new lesson plans that would help to further equip them to challenge the myths around knife crime and help them to effectively communicate to students the realities of carrying a knife. This information was also available on the KELSI website and Kent Police had offered to support PSHE teachers within the classroom environment.

     

    Another significant element that could help safeguard children would be an integrated information sharing system that captured young people who were a regular victim of exclusion and looking at how many of those young people then came into contact with the Police as a result of re-occurring exclusions. Mr Thompson stressed to the Committee that there needed to be an appropriate system that effectively managed exclusions and this was something that Kent Connect had started to review.

     

     

    Q – Do you have a hotspot map that you could provide Members with?

     

    Mr Coull said that the knife crime hotspot map needed to link in with the A&E data and ambulance data to help build a better picture of what is happening and where it is happening and said that this can be something that could be looked at in the Kent Community Safety Partnership. Currently, incidents were higher in more deprived areas such as Medway, Thanet, Ashford, Dover and Folkestone.

     

     

    Q - What challenges do we have that are specific to Kent and can Police Community Support Officers help? What more can be done to encourage teachers to engage with Kent Police to help tackle issues of knife crime?

     

    Mr Thompson said that Kent Police had 200 Police Community Support Officers (PSCOs) who were key in helping the police to identify local issues. However, with 600 primary school in Kent and only 200 PCSOs it was very difficult to ensure that there was a PCSO available outside every school in Kent. Mr Thompson assured Members that work was being carried out to look at the future role of the PCSO and how they linked in with schools as that interaction with parents, students and teachers was absolutely key.

     

    As previously mentioned, schools had a crucial role to play in early intervention and PSHE teachers needed to take the lead. Mr Thompson reminded Members that the Police are not trainers but were able to offer support to PSHE teachers.

     

     

    Q – There is evidence that suggests if you take a child out of their normal learning environment and feed new information to them in a new surrounding they are more likely to retain it, what are your thoughts on this?

     

    Mr Thompson said that there were pockets of work where Local Community Safety Units and Kent County Council Community Services had worked together to provide workshops outside of schools and outside of the school timetable. In Swale, there was a four-week programme that was run in the evening to address issues around drugs and knife crime. Mr Thompson said that Kent Police could liaise with the Community Safety Partnership to review what could be done at a local level. In Dover there was a conference that focused primarily on Organised Crime Groups which was well received. Mr Thompson said that more work needed to be done at a local level with the support of partners agencies to target young people.

     

     

    Q – Is the cohort of young people falling through the ‘gap’ widening due to the carrying of knives becoming more normalised?

     

    Mr Thompson said that the demand on social services and the level of assessments required for social service to take on a child in need was at a high. However, it was the gap between those identified children in need and the children behaving normally that remained a growing issue as no one was paying attention to them.

     

     

    Q – Due to the delayed action taken by Essex County Council, early prevention appears to be too late as the issue is far too complex to tackle. How does this relate to Kent’s current issue and what can we do to stop Kent reaching the position that Essex now faces?

     

    Mr Coull said that County Lines had been an issue in Kent for 13 to 14 years, however there was no recognised name for it. Kent Police were dedicated to tackling County Lines and the Police and Crime Commissioner had invested a significant amount of money across the districts in Kent to tackle the County Lines issue from an operational perspective. Mr Coull said that there was an identified cohort of offenders to be dealt with via the judiciary process, however, there was still an opportunity to intercept County Lines from that early prevention aspect and target those who appeared more vulnerable and may have been a victim of grooming. Mr Coull said that public health had a crucial role to play and again, this was identified by the Scottish Violence Reduction Unit who have created education programmes whereby basic trauma surgeons go into schools and discuss knife crime from the health perspective. Mr Coull reiterated the importance of early intervention and engagement with schools.

     

    Q – why is there not greater focus on reducing the demand of drugs and educating young people to say that it is not acceptable?

     

    Mr Coull said that the education process needed to be multifaceted to tackle a number of related issues. Cocaine was a growing market and the UK was one of the largest consumers of cocaine. Mr Coull said that work needed to be done to shift the focus away from what would happen if you are caught and prosecuted and move towards a more health driven agenda to support a cultural change and eliminate the risk of knife crime and gang related violence through early intervention in schools and through appropriate training and education.

     

    Mr Thompson said that the Scottish Government made it mandatory for all schools to have an educational package that focused on early intervention of violence which is why they have been successful in preventing and reducing knife related offences.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Supporting documents: